After three decades as the DA’s fast friend and a self-described ‘reliable partner’, the FF+ has switched sides in the long-troubled Oudsthoorn local government. The FF+’s three seats were a critical block in a 25-seat council, where the ANC and DA each have seven seats. According to the FF+, former Mayor Chris McPherson is the reason for the split. But the DA’s Oudsthoorn constituency head, Mandela Rhodes Scholar and former fintech entrepreneur Dr Mark Burke, says his party’s former ally has long been spoiling for a fight, and is using McPherson as an excuse. Burke says the split in the Western Cape town has implications for at least another eight municipalities in the province where the two parties are currently in coalition. He spoke to BizNews editor Alec Hogg.
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Highlights from the interview
In an interview with Alec Hogg, Dr. Mark Burke from the Democratic Alliance (DA) discusses the party’s performance and the political landscape in the Western Cape, particularly in Oudtshoorn. Burke highlights that the DA secured 55% of the vote, establishing it as the majority party. He addresses the role of the Freedom Front Plus, noting that despite their tactics, they do not significantly impact the DA’s governance. Burke emphasizes the need for calm and collaboration, urging not to disrupt functioning municipalities and expressing scepticism about the ANC’s reliability as a partner. He believes that while the Freedom Front Plus has been a functional partner in some areas, it’s crucial to maintain stability and find common ground.
Hogg raises concerns about the potential risks if the Freedom Front Plus and the ANC successfully collaborate, which could challenge the perception of the DA’s unique capability to govern locally. Burke acknowledges this risk but remains focused on constituent interests over party politics. He expresses a willingness to support any coalition that effectively serves the people, despite doubts about the ANC’s stability. The interview concludes with Burke advocating for cooperation and stability in local governance to better serve the community.
Edited transcript of the interview ___STEADY_PAYWALL___
00:00:10:00 – 00:00:37:05
Alec Hogg
I just love the BizNews community. We’ve got a number of WhatsApp channels for our premium members, and anything that’s interesting seems to be posted there and nudged me in the direction of, in particular here. What’s going on in Oudtshoorn? Well, we’ve had a chance earlier today to talk to Doctor Corne Mulder and talk to another Doctor now, Doctor Mark Burke, who’s on the other side of the fence. Corne’s with the Freedom Front Plus; Mark is with the Democratic Alliance.
00:00:37:06 – 00:00:52:10
Alec Hogg
There’s been a bust-up of, well, seismic proportions there. What does it mean for South African politics? What does it mean for the people of Oudtshoorn? Find out in a moment.
00:00:52:12 – 00:01:19:22
Alec Hogg
Lovely to be talking with you, Mark. It was a fascinating television discussion that you and Corne Mulder had the other evening. You know, at the BizNews conference in March, Corne was one of our keynote speakers, and he fascinated us with the tale that his father, who was also a politician, had told him that the one thing you never do is you never lose your temper.
00:01:20:03 – 00:01:33:05
Alec Hogg
Well, in that interview, you seem to have gotten under his skin, if not gotten him to lose his temper. It was quite vibrant. How do you guys get on with each other outside of a television studio?
00:01:33:07 – 00:02:00:18
Mark Burke
Thank you for the opportunity. I’ll start off by saying that I don’t know Corne all that well. I introduced myself to him when I joined the benches of Parliament earlier this year, and we’ve had a few pleasantries, but I wouldn’t say that I know the man exceptionally well. Having said that, I do have respect for him. I have respect for the institutional knowledge that he carries around Parliament, and I also respect the party that he represents.
00:02:00:20 – 00:02:12:18
Alec Hogg
In that discussion, you seemed to remain pretty calm throughout. You stated your case. What brought you into politics? So we can just understand a little bit more about you.
00:02:12:20 – 00:02:37:12
Mark Burke
It’s a great question. Yes. My background is that I spent five years in venture capital and then spent another five years supporting my own financial utility business with two co-founders. It started with, you know, the three of us on laptops and now a team of more than 40 people operating in a number of countries. It wasn’t the obvious choice for the last ten years that I would have transitioned into politics.
00:02:37:14 – 00:03:01:23
Mark Burke
However, the Democratic Alliance, with its organization, decided to bring in fresh faces from outside of politics and make sure that they bolster the ranks with people who were willing to cycle in to come help. And from a personal perspective, I think we can all agree that the country is not heading in the right direction. And I wanted to put my hand up to try and help.
00:03:02:01 – 00:03:04:15
Alec Hogg
Where are you from? What part of the country are you from?
00:03:04:17 – 00:03:26:02
Mark Burke
There’s this brilliant scene in a Netflix series called The Politician. In the scene, the young man’s in a taxi, and he says to the taxi driver, “I’ve lived in New York for five years, but I don’t know when I get to call myself a New Yorker.” And he asks the taxi driver, “When do I get to call myself a New Yorker?”
00:03:26:02 – 00:03:38:23
Mark Burke
And the taxi driver said, “Well, like anything in life, when you say it and you believe it’s true, then it is.” And so, with that reference point, I consider myself a Capetonian, but to answer your question, I was born in the Free State. Born and bred. And that’s it.
00:03:39:01 – 00:03:51:14
Alec Hogg
So how do you then get to speak on behalf of the DA on Oudtshoorn, which is, I suppose, about halfway between Cape Town and the Free State where you come from?
00:03:51:16 – 00:04:16:06
Mark Burke
I’m actually speaking to you today from Oudtshoorn. I am the newly appointed constituency head. There’s a process that gets followed, I imagine, in every party, but definitely in the Democratic Alliance, where because of our proportional representation system, we allocate constituencies to politicians post the filling of their seats in Parliament. And in that process, individuals can indicate their preferences.
00:04:16:06 – 00:04:32:06
Mark Burke
And so I put up my hand. I said, “I think there’s good work to be done in Oudtshoorn.” It’s a place that matters. I care for the people. Through that process, I was assigned as the constituency head, and I wasn’t quite anticipating what’s happened over the last two weeks when I put my hand up for that role.
00:04:32:08 – 00:04:35:04
Mark Burke
But nonetheless, here we are, and we’ll make the best of it.
00:04:35:06 – 00:04:40:01
Alec Hogg
Take us through, from your perspective, what has happened in the last two weeks in Oudtshoorn?
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00:04:40:01 – 00:04:59:07
Mark Burke
It must be appreciated. But I think the question is, if I could just give you an overview of what happened in Oudtshoorn over the last two weeks. Yes. I think there are two versions of what’s happened here: the Freedom Front version and the DA’s version. I’ll try and stick as close to the facts as possible but am happy to dial into any one of those pertinent facts.
00:04:59:09 – 00:05:23:13
Mark Burke
The Democratic Alliance was able to cobble together a coalition in Oudtshoorn. It’s a municipality in which nobody won an outright majority, although we did get 30% of the vote. Because of the way that we’ve got a proportional list of wards, we didn’t have exactly that amount of seats in terms of representation.
00:05:23:13 – 00:06:11:02
Mark Burke
So, we’ve got 28% of the representation with 30% of the vote. There are a number of smaller parties, including the Freedom Front Plus. Some of those parties came together to form the coalition after the 2021 election. Fairly soon after the most recent national election, the Freedom Front felt that it was no longer sustainable to be in a coalition with the DA. A motion of no confidence was brought and succeeded, which meant that last Thursday, our mayor was ousted from his seat. In coalition with the ANC, the Freedom Front Plus then proceeded with 10% of the vote and 12% of the representation to elect a Freedom Front mayor.
00:06:11:02 – 00:06:34:06
Mark Burke
So, on Thursday of last week, the motion of no confidence was passed, and the new mayor was elected. Now, uncertainty is the name of the game. The counterparty for the Freedom Front Plus is, of course, the ANC.
00:06:34:08 – 00:06:58:17
Alec Hogg
I went through the numbers from the 2021 election. There are 25 council seats in Oudtshoorn. The reason we’re spending so much time here is because it is a big change for the Freedom Front to no longer ally with the DA but to ally with the ANC. After that election, the ANC had eight seats, the DA seven, Freedom Front three, another party had two.
00:06:58:17 – 00:07:27:10
Alec Hogg
And then there were five parties that had one seat each. There has been a by-election since then, and the Patriotic Alliance now has two seats, the ANC seven. So you have seven ANC, seven DA, three Freedom Front, two Patriotic Alliance, and 25 seats in all. Work it out, you need 13. So, it’s very easy to see that if you have either the DA or the ANC together with the Freedom Front, you sit at ten and then just need another three seats.
00:07:27:10 – 00:07:56:05
Alec Hogg
And that seems pretty easy to do. But the Freedom Front is the swing factor here. Corne Mulder said they wanted to remain in coalition with the DA but found your mayor impossible. He described your mayor as a “my way or the highway” kind of character. They did ask Helen Zille, as the federal chair, to please give them another mayor. That request was declined, and as a consequence, they say that’s why they couldn’t work with your mayor. That is the situation from their side.
00:07:56:05 – 00:08:22:18
Alec Hogg
From your side, why is it that the DA is supporting its mayor, McPherson, so strongly in this instance?
00:08:24:10 – 00:09:02:13
Mark Burke
Well, I think there are a couple of points to address. First, the disparity between the version of events as relayed by Doctor Mulder and our version. And then there’s the separate question of why we support a particular candidate so strongly. I would contest the version of events given by Doctor Mulder and point out that the Freedom Front, which I think plays an important part in South African politics, suffered a shocking defeat in this election as a partner in the multi-party charter. They did not pull their weight and did not bring us the votes they promised.
00:09:02:13 – 00:09:26:08
Mark Burke
We have to ask whether they are trying to redefine themselves after those results at the expense of working municipalities. Putting aside the motive for their departure from the status quo, let’s address the question of why we support Mr. McPherson in his role. I myself underwent an intensive selection process to become an MP for the DA. This organization, the Democratic Alliance, has a rigorous selection process.
00:09:26:10 – 00:09:58:07
Mark Burke
In a past life, I interviewed for the Mandela Rhodes Scholarship no less than six times, with judges from the Constitutional Court and leaders in civil society, religion, and so forth. I can tell you that the process to become a DA leader is far more intense. Mr. McPherson would have undergone the exact same rigorous process to become a leader, including being a candidate for mayor. This is not a case of an individual having a strong relationship with another individual and therefore becoming the mayor. People are selected based on merit.
00:09:58:09 – 00:10:19:18
Mark Burke
It’s a matter of principle. If we acknowledge that we select people based on their competence, we can’t have other parties dictate to us who should be the mayor. When the mayor starts doing his job, which will sometimes be hard and involve making tough decisions, that is exactly the point where you need to stand behind this gentleman.
00:10:39:22 – 00:11:10:17
Mark Burke
I won’t start undermining him at this point. I drove into that story this morning, and on my left, there’s this massive development happening, which I think is part of, you know, the manufactured reasons presented to us of why the mayor has to go. But it is by far the biggest investment in Oudtshoorn’s history. And there was a dispute over who should pay for it, the, you know, talk of a sewage fund from the facility on which the council took a leading legal opinion from a leading law firm which indicated that the council was liable for the cost.
00:11:10:22 – 00:11:33:08
Mark Burke
The developer then threatened from their side to also present a separate legal opinion stating the same thing. And given all of these factors, the decision was made to support this development. Now, I must point out that at no point in this whole process has Mr. McPherson been found guilty of any wrongdoing. This is merely the feeling that he was assertive and driving.
00:11:33:12 – 00:11:48:00
Mark Burke
It was a needed process that separate, independent experts were telling us this is what needs to happen. So I don’t want to get too stuck on the details of Oudtshoorn. But if the worst thing you can say about a man is that he did his job, then I’m happy to support him.
00:11:48:02 – 00:12:15:01
Alec Hogg
That’s so interesting because the sewage pipe is the detail, and it is the devil in this whole change of a historic relationship between the Freedom Front and the Democratic Alliance. And I think we must unpack that a little more. How big was the development, and how much of—what I’m trying to get to is how material was—
00:12:15:01 – 00:12:32:22
Alec Hogg
I think it’s 3 million rand, is what Corne Mulder said the cost of moving the sewage line was. How material was that in the context of the entire development? And indeed, if the council had not moved the sewage line, would that development not have gone through? Would you agree with that?
00:12:33:00 – 00:12:44:14
Mark Burke
Well, I’ll start first by saying that perhaps there’s a beautiful metaphor for the Freedom Front’s conduct and the issue attached to it. But moving on from that…
00:12:44:16 – 00:13:10:20
Mark Burke
Miserable situation. The cost is, from what I understand, 3.1 million rand on which, you know, legal opinion was sought and that the city instead of litigating on this issue, instead of, you know, chasing away business—which, by the way, is a principle of both the Freedom Front and the DA, being open to business, being open to creating opportunities through the private sector—
00:13:10:22 – 00:13:32:00
Mark Burke
The issue at hand was then that let’s let the development go ahead. Experts are telling us that the city is liable for this cost. The cost is not anticipated at the point of the uncertain development, but on assessment, it is the city’s cost to pay. And should we not do that, the risk is worthless. We lose the investment and face litigation from the developer.
00:13:32:02 – 00:13:57:15
Mark Burke
So that’s, you know, on the basis of those truths, the decision was made to go ahead. So I look at the situation from the outside, and always going to have both sides of the story. But I’ll point out again that at no point was there any wrongdoing. There’s merely this feeling that a gentleman’s approach to getting something done was not to the liking of the Freedom Front Plus.
00:13:57:15 – 00:14:16:22
Mark Burke
And that then makes us question whether this is actually the issue or whether there’s a bigger play at work. And I was not able to discern from the conversation on Monday evening whether the Freedom Front Plus will continue to support the DA in other Western Cape municipalities. I’ve not been given that comfort, and that’s a real concern for us.
00:14:17:03 – 00:14:24:14
Mark Burke
The concern is that this is just the first domino to fall. And of course, people in municipalities will suffer as a result of this.
00:14:24:16 – 00:14:28:13
Alec Hogg
So they were spoiling for a fight, in a way. You’re seeing it?
00:14:28:15 – 00:14:50:10
Mark Burke
We were left with few alternatives to understand their thinking. You know, of course, if somebody is starting to move in a certain direction, they might not always articulate to you exactly why they are doing that. And then when somebody is feeling emotional because they’ve been hurt, which is what has happened to the Freedom Front Plus after this last election, then perhaps you start lashing out at the people closest to you.
00:14:50:12 – 00:15:04:10
Mark Burke
In this case, the DA. But we are left to try and pick up the pieces, understand why this is happening. Looking at the facts, we’re not able to determine that. And we then have to ask, why is this actually happening? What’s the bigger game play here?
00:15:04:12 – 00:15:19:07
Alec Hogg
So you’re seeing a lot more in it, in other words, in what’s happening in Oudtshoorn, and that this could occur elsewhere in the country in a trusted partner and a trusted ally no longer being so?
00:15:19:09 – 00:15:36:11
Mark Burke
Absolutely. I don’t want to get semantically stuck. But I also wouldn’t say that we’re seeing a lot more of the Freedom Front Plus, the great exception to my calling them a minority party, which, of course, this is what they are in the Western Cape with Doctor Mulder as the leader. They got, I think, 1.4% of the vote in this last election.
00:15:36:12 – 00:16:01:07
Mark Burke
And we obtained 55% of the vote, which does make us a majority party. So, I don’t see a lot more in it. The Freedom Front Plus is not able to disproportionately affect the course of the DA’s willingness and ability to serve society. But I am seeing more into the manufactured outrage in Oudtshoorn than what’s actually happened on the ground.
00:16:01:09 – 00:16:27:00
Mark Burke
I’m led to believe that maybe there’s another game at play, for which we would certainly suggest that calmer heads prevail. Let’s not upset working municipalities, which, by the way, is a promise that Corne Mulder made on television that they would continue to be a reliable partner to us.
00:16:27:02 – 00:16:39:13
Mark Burke
Let’s let common sense prevail. Let’s not upset a bunch of municipalities. I think there is an important role to play for the Freedom Front Plus despite their tactics at the moment.
00:16:39:15 – 00:16:53:06
Alec Hogg
How many municipalities are at risk of changing hands if the Freedom Front Plus were to take the same approach as it has done in Oudtshoorn?
00:16:53:08 – 00:17:14:00
Mark Burke
Let’s perhaps contain the conversation to the Western Cape because the assurance I was given on Monday from Dr. Mulder was that Oudtshoorn is not in danger. At the point before this last election, we had other municipalities that we co-governed in the Western Cape. Some things have changed elsewhere.
00:17:14:00 – 00:17:37:20
Mark Burke
In the Garden Route, you see the DA no longer governs with the Freedom Front Plus, but there’s still support from them. It’s a functioning government even without them. There are some developments in George. So, that number is reducing. I put it at 8 or 9 where we are still actively working together, depending on what the Freedom Front decides to do next.
00:17:37:20 – 00:17:44:21
Mark Burke
And again, I would just urge that we maintain stability in governance and that we keep working together.
00:17:44:23 – 00:18:21:12
Alec Hogg
But surely, at a local level, if the people get on, if the mayor in Oudtshoorn and the local Freedom Front members get on, or the new mayor now, the Freedom Front member of the municipality, then they can make it happen. But if you’ve got this conflict happening at the local level, I suppose it’s a little bit like a keg of gunpowder waiting for a spark in those other eight municipalities where you do co-govern with the Freedom Front Plus. What are relationships like between the people who work with each other?
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00:18:21:12 – 00:18:27:04
Alec Hogg
Plus, what are relationships like between the people who work with each other?
00:18:27:06 – 00:18:49:12
Mark Burke
I think that’s a great question. And I think that’s at the heart of what we should be advocating for here. On the whole, we get along. The values that we both stand for, which are openness to business to help create opportunities, transparent and responsible governance, these are things we both value, per rule of law. And on the ground, people do get along.
00:18:49:14 – 00:19:16:15
Mark Burke
I was able to speak to the soon-to-be new mayor of the Garden Route over the weekend, and he is very open to working together. The reality is that we are so close to the levers of power that allow us to do so much more. The country is calling out for us to work together. To borrow from Scott Fitzgerald, we can hardly fail to grasp the opportunity. It’s right in front of us and, on the whole, we do get along. There’s no reason that that should be happening.
00:19:16:17 – 00:19:43:09
Mark Burke
I would again urge that we find common ground and find a way to work together, or we will all be left to pick up the pieces. To answer your question, then, I think the relationship in most councils is very functional and healthy. I would encourage those councilors from both parties to come together and keep finding common ground as they’ve done and as they boasted about just three months ago.
00:19:43:11 – 00:20:02:05
Alec Hogg
There’s a big risk that you’re running. Clearly, you must be aware of it. If the Freedom Front and the ANC get it right and they have a lot of support from the center, then they could break this perception that it’s only the DA that can actually govern at a local level. Has that entered your thinking at all? Because it appears as though that is a risk, and you, as a business guy, come from the business community, come from an area which is highly competitive.
00:20:02:07 – 00:20:47:05
Alec Hogg
And as you’ve explained to us in the tech world, you’ve got to take these risks into account. My question would be, has that risk been factored into this breakup?
00:20:47:07 – 00:21:12:11
Mark Burke
I wish them well. At the end of the day, the constituency for ANC will serve the people. If the new mayor and his alliance partners in the ANC are able to achieve service for the residents, then that is an excellent outcome. Party political interests can never take precedence over constituent interests.
00:21:12:13 – 00:21:36:01
Mark Burke
I am very sceptical of the ANC, especially at the local level, being a reliable counterparty to anybody. I doubt the stability exists, even with the ANC cooperating in this municipality to make things work. But if, in that very unlikely scenario, in my estimation, they shoot the lights out in this town, then I will be the first person to cheer them up.
00:21:36:03 – 00:21:43:04
Alec Hogg
Dr. Mark Burke from the Democratic Alliance, the constituency head for Oudtshoorn. I’m Alec Hogg from BizNews.com.
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